An Honest Conversation about Hazing with Mindy Sopher

Mindy Sopher has been a professional advisor and mentor to students in Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia and at NC State University in Raleigh. Currently, she teaches Nonprofit Leadership and Development and advises undecided new students

Program Information: https://forcollegeforlife.com/mindy/
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mindy-sopher-2681b62/

Transcript

Casey J. Cornelius (00:04):

Hey everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of the For College for Life podcast. My name is Casey Cornelius. I am the host of this podcast. I'm also the founder and president for College for Life, and I get the opportunity to discuss with our speakers and authors and facilitators and consultants, really important topics. And today's conversation is on one of the most important topics that we deal with. And I can think of no one better to chat about this with than Mindy sfr. If you're not familiar with Mindy Sofer's biography and accomplishments, look, go to ForCollegeforlife.com/mindy. Bunch of 'em are listed there, not even all of 'em, there's not enough words on, on the, the website in order to do it justice. But Mindy is also someone who has spent many years, a large portion of her professional life dealing with one of the topics that is probably the hardest, and that is hazing. And I can't think of anybody better to bring to the mic as we begin this conversation than Ms. Mindy Sofer.

Mindy Sopher (01:09):

Thank you, Casey. That's so very kind of you. I hope that I can live up to your accolades. I

Casey J. Cornelius (01:15):

Appreciate that. I, I look at it completely opposite. I hope I can live up to, to, to your standards. So, you know, Mindy, one of the things, I'm gonna pull back the curtain just a little bit. One of the things that we always do on the podcast is we say like, Hey, let's not make anything very date specific. You know, because if people find this episode six months from now, or six years from now, we don't want 'em to feel like that they've missed anything. But, you know, for the purposes of our conversation today, there's a lot that's going on in the national dialogue around hazing and specifically absolutely related to the stories that are coming out of Northwestern University. And, and it's, it not purposefully pointing a light on them. Because my, my feeling, and my guess is you're going to reflect this as well, is that this is happening at places all across the country, not just Northwestern

Mindy Sopher (02:03):

University, and not just in our country,

Casey J. Cornelius (02:05):

And not just in our country. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what would you say to those who are beginning to think about how the conversation around hazing is going to be framed this fall on campuses?

Mindy Sopher (02:19):

Well, the timeliness of, of all the revelations that are coming out at Northwestern right now, sadly are, but another chapter in an ongoing saga of astonishment, which astonishes me of understanding and of questioning. Now, college is supposed to bring learning and some astonishment. College is supposed to bring questioning but it certainly isn't supposed to bring harm to people. And the fact that this particular incident involves athletic team and their leadership actually the coach was fired for those who aren't aware of that. But this is not what many people think of when they think of hazing in relation to fraternity sorority organizations. But athletic hazing has been going on as long as student organization, hazing and military hazing has been happening. So I think as we look towards this time of year, the actually the top two times in a school year or an academic, or a calendar year for hazing to be particularly noticeable or to heat up are as school starts.

(03:58):

And that would be when new members of teams form, when new members of fraternities and sororities form, when new folks get into clubs and organizations, the band are O T C, et cetera. And let there be no doubt hazing goes on in high school organizations too, for those that aren't aware. And then again, in January and in preparation for January, December, up to through January, February, when again, the cycle starts on many campuses for teams, fraternity, sororities, et cetera. But the fall tends to be the one that has the largest amount of notable and recorded damage deaths, suits tragedies. And whether it surfaces then or not is immaterial. But those are the hot times of the year. And I think as we approach that time of the year, it's really, in athletic terms, it's the red zone. So we need to be heightened in awareness. We need to be educated as to what hazing looks like and is, and sensitive to the fact that as human beings, we all need to respect each other and show that in a variety of ways, but particularly be sensitive to joining groups and acclimating new members. Long answer. Sorry.

Casey J. Cornelius (05:28):

No, but nothing to be sorry about at all. I I think one of the things that you referenced in your answer that is important is that we find hazing and hazing type behaviors in almost any, you know, group of people in which young people have the most control and, and power differential opportunities. Is, is that a fair way of thinking about it?

Mindy Sopher (05:56):

Power differential is exactly right. I will tell you that it's not all young people either, though. I in one of the circles that I move in, in my personal life new folks who joined a health club were asked to, and these are adults, were asked to move all the barbells and set up the mats on the floor. Not the old folks who knew. The, the seasoned folks who knew what was going on and knew where to put things. It was the job of the new members of the workout club to do that for the first three weeks of their membership. And I thought, well, a, that's against the law. <Laugh>. B, what a great way to welcome someone not really. And c where did those folks learn that behavior? Was that the way it was when they came in? Or did someone instruct them the paid professional who was there or maybe a group member to do that? And did they have to? No, but they wanted to fit in and they wanted to get to know people, and they wanted to be comfortable members of the club, therefore, guess what they did. Absolutely. I think

Casey J. Cornelius (07:10):

I, I think what you're saying is, is super important here and, and it's, I think it gets at the heart there, there are two questions I wanted to ask you about this. It gets at the heart of this issue, right? So I think about specifically young people, and I'm, I'm blessed to that's fine. To, to have, have a teenage daughter, and I hear a lot of this term used bullying, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and, and, and I think it's different almost than, than what we've considered bullying in, you know, decades past.

Mindy Sopher (07:40):

I would agree.

Casey J. Cornelius (07:42):

Is what they're talking about actually, hazing or sort of pre hazing.

Mindy Sopher (07:46):

Yeah, I've said that for a long time. It's practicing for later. Sadly my own personal experience in fifth grade, there was a group of girls who decided they would call themselves the Cootie clan, and their whole purpose was to make my life miserable. I swear to you, I saw it in writing. And if you got to join the clan, let's just make Mindy miserable. Let's do everything we can to do so. So that in fact was bullying back then. And I, it's funny, my realization of that happening just came about in the past 10 years or so. But that is building oneself or others that one hangs with up at the expense of someone else. And it shows itself in so many different ways. How about the job scene? All of us either have or wanna have a job someday, perhaps a career position. And if we're the rookie on the new team, whether it's a Wall Street trading job, or a teacher, or a real estate agent, a medical professional, you are the rookie on the team. And unfortunately, sadly, a lot of that bullying and literally hazing goes on on in the workplace too, as adults. And that is learned from the mean girls or bullies on the basketball court when folks are learning in grade school. Research says that is true.

Casey J. Cornelius (09:30):

And you just, you know, referenced rookies. And, and the, the other question that comes to mind is, I, I assume that like me, it makes your skin crawl. How many times we see reflected in the media what is presented as funny stories of mm-hmm. <Affirmative> new professional athletes or new recruits and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> service academies and so forth, engaged in behavior that in other contexts would be correct and, and maybe should be criminal and <laugh> and, and all. What is your response to that as well? That we, that we almost laugh at one behavior, you know, the, the rookie player getting their head shaved or having to go pay for dinner for 20 people mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but, but somehow in the, in the same breath, we're saying that that hazing and bullying is, is bad and illegal. How do you reconcile those things?

Mindy Sopher (10:24):

I ask a couple questions. One would be what makes it okay? And self-satisfaction and self-centeredness is usually the answer or somebody did it to me. That's all I know. And then the other question I ask is, what is the real purpose here? What is, why does your organization, your team, your group of friends exist? And if it's to tear each other down, I would say there's probably not a lot of groups that do exist for that more to build each other up. And when a team is doing it it really scares me because a team, most of the time, a team wants to win. And if we jeopardize the opportunity for success and good mental, physical and emotional health of a team member, put that in whatever context you wish. Truly hazing, bullying rookie ing is going to potentially but more than likely jeopardize that. And many, many students will say, well, it's okay 'cause the Army does it. Well, the purpose of the army is different than the purpose of your research team for that senior presentation, or is different than your sorority existing, or is different than the band. It just is.

Casey J. Cornelius (11:58):

And Mi Mindy's not saying this, but, but I'm, I have often used this phrase, if you believe that the only way to create team camaraderie and loyalty and buy-in and all that other kind of stuff is, is through hazing activities it is the laziest option and it is also the least likely to be effective, as you say, in the long term success and co term and winning. And, and, and there's, by the way, if you need better ways to produce those things reach out to happy, to help reach out to Mindy Silver. I know that this is a fast podcast today. This is so important, so timely. These are conversations that had to be had not only in response to tragedy, but far before that. If you want to learn more about Mindy's work, if you want to bring her to your organization, to your campus please let us know.

(12:56):

Forcollegeforlife.Com/Mindy, it has been said that the Northwestern case is the beginning of the college athletics hazing me too movement. Absolutely. I, I think that we are just at the beginning of these conversations, and if you want someone to lead it from a place of skill passion, but also expertise, I cannot think of anyone better than Mindy Sopher. So please reach out. Mindy, thank you for this conversation today. Means the world to me. Folks, again, if you wanna learn more, please make sure that you visit ForCollegeforlife.com/mindy. And also, please do the thing that you're supposed to do with these podcasts, like, and share and subscribe and rate, and also suggest to us the topics that you would like to hear sometime in the future. And I always say this at the end, but I particularly mean it on this episode. Until the next time we talk, be well,

Mindy Sopher (13:45):

Be safe, be well.

Casey J. Cornelius (13:47):

Thanks everyone.